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wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6tmor | ik6guxa | 1,660,433,463 | 1,660,427,457 | 175 | 111 | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | I’m three years into my career. Once I finish my exams, I’ll be licensed. I can barely afford rent in my studio apartment, and I’m just two paychecks away from being homeless. Edit: Should also mention that every few months, we get updates on how the business is doing financially…profits are going up every year. I won’t go into the details on the numbers. But it’s more than enough to double every single employee’s wage, and have some left over. | 1 | 6,006 | 1.576577 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6ssfs | ik6tmor | 1,660,433,058 | 1,660,433,463 | 54 | 175 | Not right now. Not in Canada at least. The market is so tight and every major player is fighting for “talent”. And by “talent” I mean anyone who can open revit. Wages are skyrocketing with people jumping firms for 25% pay increases. It’s not at all sustainable but nice to see people finally getting paid appropriately. If you didn’t get a decent raise this year, I suggest you open LinkedIn and see what else is out there. | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | 0 | 405 | 3.240741 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6tmor | ik6m6ds | 1,660,433,463 | 1,660,429,921 | 175 | 33 | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | Antitrust lawsuit against the AIA prevents them from setting fee tables as they used to (unlike other professions like law or medicine with their respective organizational bodies). There was also the race to the bottom due to the '08 financial crisis with firms undercutting each other. And on top of things, there's just poor business sense amongst us and a highly academic mentality amongst industry leaders. At the end of the day, there are macroeconomic problems in the general economy- people in medicine and finance are grossly overpaid. On the flipside, as a profession architects are uniquely bad at lobbying, organizing, and business strategy. Things are slowly changing though, given the labor shortage and structural problems between the missing generation of mid-level people post '08 and now senior staff retiring. And I always say this when it comes to pay- we're paid low to *specific other professions requiring advanced degrees*\- in the scheme of the general economy, we're pretty well off. Like I can't deny I'm pretty comfortable- 3 years out of grad school and licensed, honestly I'm making a nice income that affords me a comfortable lifestyle. And at that, it's a mixed bag- I make more than my friends in law, comparable to friends in engineering, know people in tech and finance who are making modestly more than me (few thousand to maybe 15k more), and then a handful of them who are just grossly overpaid relative to the education they needed, the social value of what they do, and the complexity of it. But note here I'm comparing for the most part to highly credentialed people, all of whom went to name brand schools. Architects tend to hang out amongst people with similar levels of education, so when you're constantly surrounded by people making 150k+ a year, yeah we feel poor and undervalued. But then you have to figure upper double digits to low six figures (note, post-license here) is really nothing to scoff at. So, TLDR- there are aspects of the economy (at least in the US) that desperately need to change. There are problems within the field that also need to change. The two of these alter our pay in varying measures, but it's not an either/or scenario for improving the industry. Also, have some gratitude because the reality is we make a decent living and there are a ton of people far worse off than we are. | 1 | 3,542 | 5.30303 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6tmor | ik6nl8s | 1,660,433,463 | 1,660,430,587 | 175 | 15 | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | Is this a US thing? Where I live an architect has a good salary (not top top, but you are doing well). A quick look showes it's about 28% above average, and 42% above median. Addition: Maybe the requirements for getting to call yourself an architect are different other places. Here you have to pass a rather intense 5 years (Masters). | 1 | 2,876 | 11.666667 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6tmor | ik6rfnu | 1,660,433,463 | 1,660,432,418 | 175 | 14 | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | From my personal experience it's all about what new grads can take. Often most are not confident in their abilities and will take any role at any pay . My first job out of school in 2018 I started at 70k. Slowly I been switching jobs every year and now my salary sits at 100k with no license or being a project manager . I also snagged a second job at 80k for mostly doing BIM coordination that I do simultaneously as my main J1. I work from home for both jobs. Don't take any less than your worth and keep shopping around . | 1 | 1,045 | 12.5 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6tmor | ik6iy2h | 1,660,433,463 | 1,660,428,415 | 175 | 10 | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | 1 | 5,048 | 17.5 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6tmor | ik6kmd3 | 1,660,433,463 | 1,660,429,197 | 175 | 10 | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | Supply and demand | 1 | 4,266 | 17.5 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6j9zg | ik6tmor | 1,660,428,568 | 1,660,433,463 | 5 | 175 | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | Construction economics don't favor the designers is a big part of it. Architects are also non union so they can't establish wage ranges that their clients have to adhere to. Contractors are generally unionized and contractors fees are often much higher. Often 20 percent of the overall construction costs. So on a 10 million dollar building that's 2 million. No architecture firm can bill 2 million against a 10 million construction budget. They'd never get hired. In fact the entirety of the design trade fees (structure, landscape, lighting, MEP, interiors, life safety, etc) likely wouldn't even add up to 2 million. Now it's not that every GC is living in Bel Air because the economic risk for construction is much higher. But when times are good GCs really benefit because they also can respond to demand and increase their fees accordingly. Also contractors have a second revenue stream where they buy materials at a lesser cost but charge the client full cost and pocket the difference. Architects generally aren't allowed to do stuff like that. The top architecture firm in the world is Gensler who billed $565 million for 2021. Gensler has 50 offices worldwide. In contrast the largest general contractor Turner billed $14 billion and there were fifty-six contractors whose revenue exceeded one billion dollars last year. It's a huge difference (there's a lot of complex reasons for this, but in terms of construction economics developers and contractors are the winners). Architects have historically been terrible advocates with poor business skills. The AIA in particular is a pretty weak lobby. Some other trades try here and there to charge more. Interior Design and MEP for example but often they can't cost more than the architect on a job in many clients eyes. And many many developers and clients view projects through the lens of construction and only see the design team as a commoditized means to an end. So there's a perception problem too. On top of that many heads of facilities, or heads of development for large companies come out of construction, this is especially true for government (universities, schools, etc). So the construction point of view tends to drive decisions, design is often a distant worry behind budget and schedule and logistics. You see this clearly with RFPs which often don't really care about your portfolio they just want to know if you've done a project like this before. So, for instance, if you want to do an elementary school the forces hiring the architect are mostly interested in if they've done similar projects, not necessarily whether they've done those projects well or advanced design or any of the stuff architects care about. So there's a disconnect in terms of what architects want their clients to value versus what client's actually value. There is a huge gulf of value proposition in construction economics. Architects and designers literally create the products that make their clients money but there is no return on value. A hotel might make hundreds of millions of dollars of value for a developer, but the architect or design team might be only making a few hundred thousand in fees. There's an extreme difference between value generated and value compensated for. Design trades might actually be among the worst businesses to be in because many firms are operating at slim, to no margins and often basically working for free if projects stretch on or the client isn't good about paying on time. Celebrity architecture firms often charge more because of demand. But those businesses are often large. Several hundred employees with a lot of overhead. SOM can charge 5 million but they're doing Burj Khalifa. Lastly architecture being a service business typically struggles in the accounts receivable department. The field is plagued by clients who don't want to pay or don't pay on time (often due to the fact when a developer has capital available is out of step with the payment schedule). And these projects have long gestation times typically two years or more. And the fees and budgets are set at the outset of a project when you know the least about what you're doing. And before a GC is brought on board so you have no idea what the construction costs will come back as and whether or not there will be a VE exercise which can account for many billable hours (often a redesign) that has to be accounted for before you even know what you're doing with the project. So then design firms get into the hell of additional services which owners don't want to pay because they didn't budget for it. It's a huge mess. A guild or trade union would start to solve a lot of this. Similar to how Hollywood works. If you are an actor or director worth your salt you have to be in a guild in order to be hired. And companies have to be signatories of that guild. So for example to work on an ABC network show you have to be in the directors guild because ABC is a DGA signatory. This establishes a baseline of quality and understood expectations for costs. The guild also offers a layer of protection to directors. Only no budget indie films would hire a non SAG actor because no actors get taken seriously unless they're in SAG. It adds a layer of credentials that you're someone trustworthy and the guilds tend to be invite only. So that protects clients because level of talent or expertise is pre filtered and there are legals in place for when agreements fall apart. I don't think architects need the equivalent of IBEW and obviously it gets tricky internationally, but some collective bargaining apparatus and universalizing of basic fee and pay conditions at least in RIBA and AIA countries would go a long way especially with the field moving quickly toward hybridizing with the tech industry as web 3.0 and technologies like metaverse, etc. begin to emerge. | 0 | 4,895 | 35 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6ssfs | ik6m6ds | 1,660,433,058 | 1,660,429,921 | 54 | 33 | Not right now. Not in Canada at least. The market is so tight and every major player is fighting for “talent”. And by “talent” I mean anyone who can open revit. Wages are skyrocketing with people jumping firms for 25% pay increases. It’s not at all sustainable but nice to see people finally getting paid appropriately. If you didn’t get a decent raise this year, I suggest you open LinkedIn and see what else is out there. | Antitrust lawsuit against the AIA prevents them from setting fee tables as they used to (unlike other professions like law or medicine with their respective organizational bodies). There was also the race to the bottom due to the '08 financial crisis with firms undercutting each other. And on top of things, there's just poor business sense amongst us and a highly academic mentality amongst industry leaders. At the end of the day, there are macroeconomic problems in the general economy- people in medicine and finance are grossly overpaid. On the flipside, as a profession architects are uniquely bad at lobbying, organizing, and business strategy. Things are slowly changing though, given the labor shortage and structural problems between the missing generation of mid-level people post '08 and now senior staff retiring. And I always say this when it comes to pay- we're paid low to *specific other professions requiring advanced degrees*\- in the scheme of the general economy, we're pretty well off. Like I can't deny I'm pretty comfortable- 3 years out of grad school and licensed, honestly I'm making a nice income that affords me a comfortable lifestyle. And at that, it's a mixed bag- I make more than my friends in law, comparable to friends in engineering, know people in tech and finance who are making modestly more than me (few thousand to maybe 15k more), and then a handful of them who are just grossly overpaid relative to the education they needed, the social value of what they do, and the complexity of it. But note here I'm comparing for the most part to highly credentialed people, all of whom went to name brand schools. Architects tend to hang out amongst people with similar levels of education, so when you're constantly surrounded by people making 150k+ a year, yeah we feel poor and undervalued. But then you have to figure upper double digits to low six figures (note, post-license here) is really nothing to scoff at. So, TLDR- there are aspects of the economy (at least in the US) that desperately need to change. There are problems within the field that also need to change. The two of these alter our pay in varying measures, but it's not an either/or scenario for improving the industry. Also, have some gratitude because the reality is we make a decent living and there are a ton of people far worse off than we are. | 1 | 3,137 | 1.636364 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6ssfs | ik6nl8s | 1,660,433,058 | 1,660,430,587 | 54 | 15 | Not right now. Not in Canada at least. The market is so tight and every major player is fighting for “talent”. And by “talent” I mean anyone who can open revit. Wages are skyrocketing with people jumping firms for 25% pay increases. It’s not at all sustainable but nice to see people finally getting paid appropriately. If you didn’t get a decent raise this year, I suggest you open LinkedIn and see what else is out there. | Is this a US thing? Where I live an architect has a good salary (not top top, but you are doing well). A quick look showes it's about 28% above average, and 42% above median. Addition: Maybe the requirements for getting to call yourself an architect are different other places. Here you have to pass a rather intense 5 years (Masters). | 1 | 2,471 | 3.6 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6ssfs | ik6rfnu | 1,660,433,058 | 1,660,432,418 | 54 | 14 | Not right now. Not in Canada at least. The market is so tight and every major player is fighting for “talent”. And by “talent” I mean anyone who can open revit. Wages are skyrocketing with people jumping firms for 25% pay increases. It’s not at all sustainable but nice to see people finally getting paid appropriately. If you didn’t get a decent raise this year, I suggest you open LinkedIn and see what else is out there. | From my personal experience it's all about what new grads can take. Often most are not confident in their abilities and will take any role at any pay . My first job out of school in 2018 I started at 70k. Slowly I been switching jobs every year and now my salary sits at 100k with no license or being a project manager . I also snagged a second job at 80k for mostly doing BIM coordination that I do simultaneously as my main J1. I work from home for both jobs. Don't take any less than your worth and keep shopping around . | 1 | 640 | 3.857143 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6ssfs | ik6iy2h | 1,660,433,058 | 1,660,428,415 | 54 | 10 | Not right now. Not in Canada at least. The market is so tight and every major player is fighting for “talent”. And by “talent” I mean anyone who can open revit. Wages are skyrocketing with people jumping firms for 25% pay increases. It’s not at all sustainable but nice to see people finally getting paid appropriately. If you didn’t get a decent raise this year, I suggest you open LinkedIn and see what else is out there. | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | 1 | 4,643 | 5.4 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6kmd3 | ik6ssfs | 1,660,429,197 | 1,660,433,058 | 10 | 54 | Supply and demand | Not right now. Not in Canada at least. The market is so tight and every major player is fighting for “talent”. And by “talent” I mean anyone who can open revit. Wages are skyrocketing with people jumping firms for 25% pay increases. It’s not at all sustainable but nice to see people finally getting paid appropriately. If you didn’t get a decent raise this year, I suggest you open LinkedIn and see what else is out there. | 0 | 3,861 | 5.4 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6ssfs | ik6j9zg | 1,660,433,058 | 1,660,428,568 | 54 | 5 | Not right now. Not in Canada at least. The market is so tight and every major player is fighting for “talent”. And by “talent” I mean anyone who can open revit. Wages are skyrocketing with people jumping firms for 25% pay increases. It’s not at all sustainable but nice to see people finally getting paid appropriately. If you didn’t get a decent raise this year, I suggest you open LinkedIn and see what else is out there. | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | 1 | 4,490 | 10.8 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6iy2h | ik6m6ds | 1,660,428,415 | 1,660,429,921 | 10 | 33 | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | Antitrust lawsuit against the AIA prevents them from setting fee tables as they used to (unlike other professions like law or medicine with their respective organizational bodies). There was also the race to the bottom due to the '08 financial crisis with firms undercutting each other. And on top of things, there's just poor business sense amongst us and a highly academic mentality amongst industry leaders. At the end of the day, there are macroeconomic problems in the general economy- people in medicine and finance are grossly overpaid. On the flipside, as a profession architects are uniquely bad at lobbying, organizing, and business strategy. Things are slowly changing though, given the labor shortage and structural problems between the missing generation of mid-level people post '08 and now senior staff retiring. And I always say this when it comes to pay- we're paid low to *specific other professions requiring advanced degrees*\- in the scheme of the general economy, we're pretty well off. Like I can't deny I'm pretty comfortable- 3 years out of grad school and licensed, honestly I'm making a nice income that affords me a comfortable lifestyle. And at that, it's a mixed bag- I make more than my friends in law, comparable to friends in engineering, know people in tech and finance who are making modestly more than me (few thousand to maybe 15k more), and then a handful of them who are just grossly overpaid relative to the education they needed, the social value of what they do, and the complexity of it. But note here I'm comparing for the most part to highly credentialed people, all of whom went to name brand schools. Architects tend to hang out amongst people with similar levels of education, so when you're constantly surrounded by people making 150k+ a year, yeah we feel poor and undervalued. But then you have to figure upper double digits to low six figures (note, post-license here) is really nothing to scoff at. So, TLDR- there are aspects of the economy (at least in the US) that desperately need to change. There are problems within the field that also need to change. The two of these alter our pay in varying measures, but it's not an either/or scenario for improving the industry. Also, have some gratitude because the reality is we make a decent living and there are a ton of people far worse off than we are. | 0 | 1,506 | 3.3 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6m6ds | ik6kmd3 | 1,660,429,921 | 1,660,429,197 | 33 | 10 | Antitrust lawsuit against the AIA prevents them from setting fee tables as they used to (unlike other professions like law or medicine with their respective organizational bodies). There was also the race to the bottom due to the '08 financial crisis with firms undercutting each other. And on top of things, there's just poor business sense amongst us and a highly academic mentality amongst industry leaders. At the end of the day, there are macroeconomic problems in the general economy- people in medicine and finance are grossly overpaid. On the flipside, as a profession architects are uniquely bad at lobbying, organizing, and business strategy. Things are slowly changing though, given the labor shortage and structural problems between the missing generation of mid-level people post '08 and now senior staff retiring. And I always say this when it comes to pay- we're paid low to *specific other professions requiring advanced degrees*\- in the scheme of the general economy, we're pretty well off. Like I can't deny I'm pretty comfortable- 3 years out of grad school and licensed, honestly I'm making a nice income that affords me a comfortable lifestyle. And at that, it's a mixed bag- I make more than my friends in law, comparable to friends in engineering, know people in tech and finance who are making modestly more than me (few thousand to maybe 15k more), and then a handful of them who are just grossly overpaid relative to the education they needed, the social value of what they do, and the complexity of it. But note here I'm comparing for the most part to highly credentialed people, all of whom went to name brand schools. Architects tend to hang out amongst people with similar levels of education, so when you're constantly surrounded by people making 150k+ a year, yeah we feel poor and undervalued. But then you have to figure upper double digits to low six figures (note, post-license here) is really nothing to scoff at. So, TLDR- there are aspects of the economy (at least in the US) that desperately need to change. There are problems within the field that also need to change. The two of these alter our pay in varying measures, but it's not an either/or scenario for improving the industry. Also, have some gratitude because the reality is we make a decent living and there are a ton of people far worse off than we are. | Supply and demand | 1 | 724 | 3.3 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6j9zg | ik6m6ds | 1,660,428,568 | 1,660,429,921 | 5 | 33 | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | Antitrust lawsuit against the AIA prevents them from setting fee tables as they used to (unlike other professions like law or medicine with their respective organizational bodies). There was also the race to the bottom due to the '08 financial crisis with firms undercutting each other. And on top of things, there's just poor business sense amongst us and a highly academic mentality amongst industry leaders. At the end of the day, there are macroeconomic problems in the general economy- people in medicine and finance are grossly overpaid. On the flipside, as a profession architects are uniquely bad at lobbying, organizing, and business strategy. Things are slowly changing though, given the labor shortage and structural problems between the missing generation of mid-level people post '08 and now senior staff retiring. And I always say this when it comes to pay- we're paid low to *specific other professions requiring advanced degrees*\- in the scheme of the general economy, we're pretty well off. Like I can't deny I'm pretty comfortable- 3 years out of grad school and licensed, honestly I'm making a nice income that affords me a comfortable lifestyle. And at that, it's a mixed bag- I make more than my friends in law, comparable to friends in engineering, know people in tech and finance who are making modestly more than me (few thousand to maybe 15k more), and then a handful of them who are just grossly overpaid relative to the education they needed, the social value of what they do, and the complexity of it. But note here I'm comparing for the most part to highly credentialed people, all of whom went to name brand schools. Architects tend to hang out amongst people with similar levels of education, so when you're constantly surrounded by people making 150k+ a year, yeah we feel poor and undervalued. But then you have to figure upper double digits to low six figures (note, post-license here) is really nothing to scoff at. So, TLDR- there are aspects of the economy (at least in the US) that desperately need to change. There are problems within the field that also need to change. The two of these alter our pay in varying measures, but it's not an either/or scenario for improving the industry. Also, have some gratitude because the reality is we make a decent living and there are a ton of people far worse off than we are. | 0 | 1,353 | 6.6 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6nl8s | ik6wcsd | 1,660,430,587 | 1,660,434,758 | 15 | 20 | Is this a US thing? Where I live an architect has a good salary (not top top, but you are doing well). A quick look showes it's about 28% above average, and 42% above median. Addition: Maybe the requirements for getting to call yourself an architect are different other places. Here you have to pass a rather intense 5 years (Masters). | I think the aia has a huge part to it tbh. They state really low compensation that firms should pay their employees. If you ask anyone in architecture how much you should be compensated they always quote the aia website on salary for any position. But thats just my opinion. | 0 | 4,171 | 1.333333 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6wcsd | ik6rfnu | 1,660,434,758 | 1,660,432,418 | 20 | 14 | I think the aia has a huge part to it tbh. They state really low compensation that firms should pay their employees. If you ask anyone in architecture how much you should be compensated they always quote the aia website on salary for any position. But thats just my opinion. | From my personal experience it's all about what new grads can take. Often most are not confident in their abilities and will take any role at any pay . My first job out of school in 2018 I started at 70k. Slowly I been switching jobs every year and now my salary sits at 100k with no license or being a project manager . I also snagged a second job at 80k for mostly doing BIM coordination that I do simultaneously as my main J1. I work from home for both jobs. Don't take any less than your worth and keep shopping around . | 1 | 2,340 | 1.428571 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6wcsd | ik6iy2h | 1,660,434,758 | 1,660,428,415 | 20 | 10 | I think the aia has a huge part to it tbh. They state really low compensation that firms should pay their employees. If you ask anyone in architecture how much you should be compensated they always quote the aia website on salary for any position. But thats just my opinion. | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | 1 | 6,343 | 2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6kmd3 | ik6wcsd | 1,660,429,197 | 1,660,434,758 | 10 | 20 | Supply and demand | I think the aia has a huge part to it tbh. They state really low compensation that firms should pay their employees. If you ask anyone in architecture how much you should be compensated they always quote the aia website on salary for any position. But thats just my opinion. | 0 | 5,561 | 2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6wcsd | ik6j9zg | 1,660,434,758 | 1,660,428,568 | 20 | 5 | I think the aia has a huge part to it tbh. They state really low compensation that firms should pay their employees. If you ask anyone in architecture how much you should be compensated they always quote the aia website on salary for any position. But thats just my opinion. | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | 1 | 6,190 | 4 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6iy2h | ik6nl8s | 1,660,428,415 | 1,660,430,587 | 10 | 15 | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | Is this a US thing? Where I live an architect has a good salary (not top top, but you are doing well). A quick look showes it's about 28% above average, and 42% above median. Addition: Maybe the requirements for getting to call yourself an architect are different other places. Here you have to pass a rather intense 5 years (Masters). | 0 | 2,172 | 1.5 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6nl8s | ik6kmd3 | 1,660,430,587 | 1,660,429,197 | 15 | 10 | Is this a US thing? Where I live an architect has a good salary (not top top, but you are doing well). A quick look showes it's about 28% above average, and 42% above median. Addition: Maybe the requirements for getting to call yourself an architect are different other places. Here you have to pass a rather intense 5 years (Masters). | Supply and demand | 1 | 1,390 | 1.5 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6j9zg | ik6nl8s | 1,660,428,568 | 1,660,430,587 | 5 | 15 | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | Is this a US thing? Where I live an architect has a good salary (not top top, but you are doing well). A quick look showes it's about 28% above average, and 42% above median. Addition: Maybe the requirements for getting to call yourself an architect are different other places. Here you have to pass a rather intense 5 years (Masters). | 0 | 2,019 | 3 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6rfnu | ik6iy2h | 1,660,432,418 | 1,660,428,415 | 14 | 10 | From my personal experience it's all about what new grads can take. Often most are not confident in their abilities and will take any role at any pay . My first job out of school in 2018 I started at 70k. Slowly I been switching jobs every year and now my salary sits at 100k with no license or being a project manager . I also snagged a second job at 80k for mostly doing BIM coordination that I do simultaneously as my main J1. I work from home for both jobs. Don't take any less than your worth and keep shopping around . | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | 1 | 4,003 | 1.4 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6rfnu | ik6kmd3 | 1,660,432,418 | 1,660,429,197 | 14 | 10 | From my personal experience it's all about what new grads can take. Often most are not confident in their abilities and will take any role at any pay . My first job out of school in 2018 I started at 70k. Slowly I been switching jobs every year and now my salary sits at 100k with no license or being a project manager . I also snagged a second job at 80k for mostly doing BIM coordination that I do simultaneously as my main J1. I work from home for both jobs. Don't take any less than your worth and keep shopping around . | Supply and demand | 1 | 3,221 | 1.4 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6j9zg | ik6rfnu | 1,660,428,568 | 1,660,432,418 | 5 | 14 | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | From my personal experience it's all about what new grads can take. Often most are not confident in their abilities and will take any role at any pay . My first job out of school in 2018 I started at 70k. Slowly I been switching jobs every year and now my salary sits at 100k with no license or being a project manager . I also snagged a second job at 80k for mostly doing BIM coordination that I do simultaneously as my main J1. I work from home for both jobs. Don't take any less than your worth and keep shopping around . | 0 | 3,850 | 2.8 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6iy2h | ik6zr9o | 1,660,428,415 | 1,660,436,424 | 10 | 12 | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | Architects also need to work more efficiently. When your process to completion is iterative you can spend a lot of time getting to a solution. Very few professions have unlimited paths to completion of a task. Imagine if a brain surgeon needed to come up with creative ways to remove the tumor for every single operation!! Many principals I know are content with their income and do not maximise profit. There are efficient architecture firms whose principals pull in 7 figures. | 0 | 8,009 | 1.2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6kmd3 | ik6zr9o | 1,660,429,197 | 1,660,436,424 | 10 | 12 | Supply and demand | Architects also need to work more efficiently. When your process to completion is iterative you can spend a lot of time getting to a solution. Very few professions have unlimited paths to completion of a task. Imagine if a brain surgeon needed to come up with creative ways to remove the tumor for every single operation!! Many principals I know are content with their income and do not maximise profit. There are efficient architecture firms whose principals pull in 7 figures. | 0 | 7,227 | 1.2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6zr9o | ik6xoik | 1,660,436,424 | 1,660,435,407 | 12 | 5 | Architects also need to work more efficiently. When your process to completion is iterative you can spend a lot of time getting to a solution. Very few professions have unlimited paths to completion of a task. Imagine if a brain surgeon needed to come up with creative ways to remove the tumor for every single operation!! Many principals I know are content with their income and do not maximise profit. There are efficient architecture firms whose principals pull in 7 figures. | Non-licensed. 15+ years experience. Salary still is about of a struggle, but there are so many factors as others have pointed out like the fee undercutting for winning projects. That drops the whole profession down. | 1 | 1,017 | 2.4 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6j9zg | ik6zr9o | 1,660,428,568 | 1,660,436,424 | 5 | 12 | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | Architects also need to work more efficiently. When your process to completion is iterative you can spend a lot of time getting to a solution. Very few professions have unlimited paths to completion of a task. Imagine if a brain surgeon needed to come up with creative ways to remove the tumor for every single operation!! Many principals I know are content with their income and do not maximise profit. There are efficient architecture firms whose principals pull in 7 figures. | 0 | 7,856 | 2.4 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik731nj | ik6iy2h | 1,660,438,026 | 1,660,428,415 | 11 | 10 | 5 years experience, non-licensed in Kansas City, MO. Pay is pretty brutal. Honestly it's burning me out of the profession. I definitely started as one of the doe-eyed idiots out of college but it was difficult to even get my firm to acknowledge the inflation rate and that anything less than an 7%-8% raise is a pay cut. I wish there was a silver lining but in my experience, by the time any of us (working class) get to a level we can make a difference, we're on the other side of the negotiating table from employees and no longer want to give raises. Sorry if this is a bit cynical, hopefully others have had a better experience. | Because there are many doe-eyed rosy little cucks that want to get into the profession and don't mind taking it up behind for years (a.k.a crap wages). Degrees used to be special in the 1950s when <10% had one. Today it has become a commodity, so you need to study many more years in order to be deserving of a non-starvation income. | 1 | 9,611 | 1.1 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik731nj | ik6kmd3 | 1,660,438,026 | 1,660,429,197 | 11 | 10 | 5 years experience, non-licensed in Kansas City, MO. Pay is pretty brutal. Honestly it's burning me out of the profession. I definitely started as one of the doe-eyed idiots out of college but it was difficult to even get my firm to acknowledge the inflation rate and that anything less than an 7%-8% raise is a pay cut. I wish there was a silver lining but in my experience, by the time any of us (working class) get to a level we can make a difference, we're on the other side of the negotiating table from employees and no longer want to give raises. Sorry if this is a bit cynical, hopefully others have had a better experience. | Supply and demand | 1 | 8,829 | 1.1 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik731nj | ik6xoik | 1,660,438,026 | 1,660,435,407 | 11 | 5 | 5 years experience, non-licensed in Kansas City, MO. Pay is pretty brutal. Honestly it's burning me out of the profession. I definitely started as one of the doe-eyed idiots out of college but it was difficult to even get my firm to acknowledge the inflation rate and that anything less than an 7%-8% raise is a pay cut. I wish there was a silver lining but in my experience, by the time any of us (working class) get to a level we can make a difference, we're on the other side of the negotiating table from employees and no longer want to give raises. Sorry if this is a bit cynical, hopefully others have had a better experience. | Non-licensed. 15+ years experience. Salary still is about of a struggle, but there are so many factors as others have pointed out like the fee undercutting for winning projects. That drops the whole profession down. | 1 | 2,619 | 2.2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik731nj | ik6j9zg | 1,660,438,026 | 1,660,428,568 | 11 | 5 | 5 years experience, non-licensed in Kansas City, MO. Pay is pretty brutal. Honestly it's burning me out of the profession. I definitely started as one of the doe-eyed idiots out of college but it was difficult to even get my firm to acknowledge the inflation rate and that anything less than an 7%-8% raise is a pay cut. I wish there was a silver lining but in my experience, by the time any of us (working class) get to a level we can make a difference, we're on the other side of the negotiating table from employees and no longer want to give raises. Sorry if this is a bit cynical, hopefully others have had a better experience. | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | 1 | 9,458 | 2.2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6kmd3 | ik6j9zg | 1,660,429,197 | 1,660,428,568 | 10 | 5 | Supply and demand | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | 1 | 629 | 2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik6xoik | ik7hhd5 | 1,660,435,407 | 1,660,445,058 | 5 | 6 | Non-licensed. 15+ years experience. Salary still is about of a struggle, but there are so many factors as others have pointed out like the fee undercutting for winning projects. That drops the whole profession down. | in australia qualified architects on average get payed anywhere from 80,000 - 120,000 per annum | 0 | 9,651 | 1.2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik7hhd5 | ik6j9zg | 1,660,445,058 | 1,660,428,568 | 6 | 5 | in australia qualified architects on average get payed anywhere from 80,000 - 120,000 per annum | At least in US, it seems like there are way too much supply of fresh college architecture graduates into the field where they are not needed at that level. In some high-demand fields, getting a good, reputable degree in that area can guarantee a job. From my experience, even architecture students at ivy leagues do not come close to that kind of demand. I have only been in the field for 2 years, and too many of my fellow graduates are already completely out of the field. Yet this was touted as positive thing in my undergrad. Apparently the exodus was due to the excellent renaissance education we all get as B. Arch students. Bullshit that. Architecture schools across the country bank in on the word "architect" and keeps this overflow of surplus of architecture graduates who cannot bargain much. This is one part of many reasons why bosses do not push for higher fees. Also, back in the day, AIA used to give guidance to fees. That was too close to industry-wide price fixing to the regulators. Many that had an impact, too? Though I am not sure if architects were flush with cash decades ago. | 1 | 16,490 | 1.2 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik78u8k | ik7hhd5 | 1,660,440,835 | 1,660,445,058 | 2 | 6 | Simple. Supply > demand. | in australia qualified architects on average get payed anywhere from 80,000 - 120,000 per annum | 0 | 4,223 | 3 | ||
wnoev1 | architecture_train | 0.84 | Why architects get paid so much less than everyone? eventhough the study is so hard compared to any other profession.. It makes me sad about the passionate architects, and also worried about the sustainability of the profession in the future | ik7ijla | ik78u8k | 1,660,445,611 | 1,660,440,835 | 3 | 2 | How architecture firms do their work… I have not been to small firms like less than 30 people ones so I am not going to comment on those… in morien to large firms, the people who actually doing drafting, modeling or anything related to the ‘work skills’ we learn in schools are not paid so well. The principles will be in the meetings, responding emails, dealing with all the client end things. However, in between the drafting people, people coordinating and meeting client’s requirements, there are so many internal meetings to deal with. All these communication time would be efficiently saved if the ‘mind’ can actually ‘draw’. Worse than this, there are new programs/ softwares/ gadgets make drafting/ data input / calculating so much easier, but the principles have left the whole production field behind and they don’t even know who to hire, how to utilize effort - which cause a lot of frictions and adding burdens on top of everything . And there is always the unethical competition. A firm can somehow exploit some students and graduate to reduce the fees and bring down everyone else. | Simple. Supply > demand. | 1 | 4,776 | 1.5 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6b370 | iu6c9y3 | 1,666,993,395 | 1,666,993,921 | 19 | 378 | Architects are very underpaid considering the little bit of prestige we have. We can even be compared to Doctors and Lawyers. Except for the Starchitects out there the average Architect isn't making great money. My recommendation would be to find a job and then look for a better one. Always make sure you can do moonlighting on the side to make some extra money. | Architects are forced to bid against each other for many projects, something doctors and lawyers as professional do not have to do. On top of that, the people that finance projects look to cut costs, including fees to architects. Our firm could charge more and still be a great deal, but we'd lose out on work as we would be undercut fee-wise by numerous other architects. In short, in order for architects to be paid what they are really worth, you need to convince the people who pay for our services that we are worth far more, and you have to convince everyone that bidding for architectural services is destroying the profession. | 0 | 526 | 19.894737 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6c9y3 | iu6bwxb | 1,666,993,921 | 1,666,993,765 | 378 | 11 | Architects are forced to bid against each other for many projects, something doctors and lawyers as professional do not have to do. On top of that, the people that finance projects look to cut costs, including fees to architects. Our firm could charge more and still be a great deal, but we'd lose out on work as we would be undercut fee-wise by numerous other architects. In short, in order for architects to be paid what they are really worth, you need to convince the people who pay for our services that we are worth far more, and you have to convince everyone that bidding for architectural services is destroying the profession. | To oversimplify, more people want to be architects than the market will bear, despite the many years of education required. Like teaching, it seems to be a calling rather than a solid plan to make money commensurate with the education required. | 1 | 156 | 34.363636 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6c9y3 | iu6b9yx | 1,666,993,921 | 1,666,993,479 | 378 | 10 | Architects are forced to bid against each other for many projects, something doctors and lawyers as professional do not have to do. On top of that, the people that finance projects look to cut costs, including fees to architects. Our firm could charge more and still be a great deal, but we'd lose out on work as we would be undercut fee-wise by numerous other architects. In short, in order for architects to be paid what they are really worth, you need to convince the people who pay for our services that we are worth far more, and you have to convince everyone that bidding for architectural services is destroying the profession. | How many years of experience do you have ? | 1 | 442 | 37.8 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6ryir | iu7n7px | 1,667,001,360 | 1,667,017,747 | 129 | 141 | I make more money in my first year in an entry level construction position that requires a 4 year degree (project engineer) than I made in 7 years as a Project Manager with my Masters degree. | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | 0 | 16,387 | 1.093023 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu6n54m | 1,667,017,747 | 1,666,999,002 | 141 | 67 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | Architects should have unionized like the rest of the construction industry did generations ago. We would have a much better built environment and building designers would be fairly compensated. It is absurd that a lot of us make far less than other less skilled tradesmen. | 1 | 18,745 | 2.104478 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu70pot | iu7n7px | 1,667,005,622 | 1,667,017,747 | 55 | 141 | This my advice for all young graduates . If you want to make money go into construction and use your Revit skills there . You will learn more about building science and constructability. Then find remote jobs and do contract work with 3 firms . Boom paychecks roll in | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | 0 | 12,125 | 2.563636 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu7bsb1 | 1,667,017,747 | 1,667,011,120 | 141 | 43 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | 1 | 6,627 | 3.27907 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu7gxzp | 1,667,017,747 | 1,667,013,945 | 141 | 46 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | 1 | 3,802 | 3.065217 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu7a0t7 | 1,667,017,747 | 1,667,010,227 | 141 | 41 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | The "is it worth it?" question is the crux of the issue. Architecture an interesting career that can be very rewarding. But given how much work is required to be good at this job, you can put in half the effort into another job and get paid double. After 17 years of sticking with it, I jumped ship and switched careers to system administration. Double the pay/benefits. It's just not worth it plugging away daily for so little. I'm licensed so I have been doing some jobs on the side to keep my architecture skills up to date. | 1 | 7,520 | 3.439024 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu78bsk | 1,667,017,747 | 1,667,009,378 | 141 | 38 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | Competition is high basically , and the reality is the developers make all the money , architects and engineers just get the scraps kind of . | 1 | 8,369 | 3.710526 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7c9b1 | iu7n7px | 1,667,011,365 | 1,667,017,747 | 37 | 141 | Design is seen as a commodity, whoever is low bid will get the job. It’s ironic though because design significantly affects the final cost of work. I think by choosing to spend more on design up front owners would get better and more complete designs - which would reduce uncertainty/risk going into construction which would be a big cost benefit to the project. | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | 0 | 6,382 | 3.810811 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6b370 | iu7n7px | 1,666,993,395 | 1,667,017,747 | 19 | 141 | Architects are very underpaid considering the little bit of prestige we have. We can even be compared to Doctors and Lawyers. Except for the Starchitects out there the average Architect isn't making great money. My recommendation would be to find a job and then look for a better one. Always make sure you can do moonlighting on the side to make some extra money. | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | 0 | 24,352 | 7.421053 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7k5hh | iu7n7px | 1,667,015,836 | 1,667,017,747 | 14 | 141 | Literally everyone except the elite class is underpaid | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | 0 | 1,911 | 10.071429 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6bwxb | iu7n7px | 1,666,993,765 | 1,667,017,747 | 11 | 141 | To oversimplify, more people want to be architects than the market will bear, despite the many years of education required. Like teaching, it seems to be a calling rather than a solid plan to make money commensurate with the education required. | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | 0 | 23,982 | 12.818182 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu6b9yx | 1,667,017,747 | 1,666,993,479 | 141 | 10 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | How many years of experience do you have ? | 1 | 24,268 | 14.1 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu6rc9g | 1,667,017,747 | 1,667,001,055 | 141 | 9 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | It's complicated and hugely multi-factorial for a profession where it's hard to quantify in numbers the benefit even though it's needed. We don't even value ourselves seeing all the free work we do. Most people think architects "design" and that's it, when really that's just a small part of the array of duties we do. I'm married to a developer and they said they pay good arch fees. Then I broke it down and for the team and for the time put in and all those "can you make a quick change"... Which you know is anything but quick. It was illuminating. Really need to educate others outside of the profession what happens. They get what an architect does from Hollywood and God forbid...HGTV. There's like a hundred more reasons too from that devastating lawsuit about suggested fee scales to pumping out grads from nowheresville that flood the markets. | 1 | 16,692 | 15.666667 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7n7px | iu6w8e5 | 1,667,017,747 | 1,667,003,464 | 141 | 8 | I just had this conversation with my boss at my salary review which I did not hide that I was disappointed by the evaluation. He was proud to tell me in his day he would work way more than 8 hours for his paycheck and that what I'm asking for is steep. I calmly let him know that these days, that's abuse and we need to work on bettering the industry for everyone's sake. He didn't disagree. | I think a part of it comes down to why firms often have a difficult time making a profit. One can estimate hours and fees required for a project, from concept through CA, but so many curveballs can be thrown throughout the duration of the project, that often times the fees agreed to end up being too low. Couple that with the fact that our projects are in essence our advertising. Even if we run out of hours or fees on a project, there is still a need to see it through to the best of our ability, so that our design and our art can be realized as intended, so we can add another strong project to our portfolio and website, which ideally will get us more projects. It’s tough to balance trying to do a project service, while maintaining profitability. | 1 | 14,283 | 17.625 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6ryir | iu6n54m | 1,667,001,360 | 1,666,999,002 | 129 | 67 | I make more money in my first year in an entry level construction position that requires a 4 year degree (project engineer) than I made in 7 years as a Project Manager with my Masters degree. | Architects should have unionized like the rest of the construction industry did generations ago. We would have a much better built environment and building designers would be fairly compensated. It is absurd that a lot of us make far less than other less skilled tradesmen. | 1 | 2,358 | 1.925373 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6ryir | iu6b370 | 1,667,001,360 | 1,666,993,395 | 129 | 19 | I make more money in my first year in an entry level construction position that requires a 4 year degree (project engineer) than I made in 7 years as a Project Manager with my Masters degree. | Architects are very underpaid considering the little bit of prestige we have. We can even be compared to Doctors and Lawyers. Except for the Starchitects out there the average Architect isn't making great money. My recommendation would be to find a job and then look for a better one. Always make sure you can do moonlighting on the side to make some extra money. | 1 | 7,965 | 6.789474 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6ryir | iu6bwxb | 1,667,001,360 | 1,666,993,765 | 129 | 11 | I make more money in my first year in an entry level construction position that requires a 4 year degree (project engineer) than I made in 7 years as a Project Manager with my Masters degree. | To oversimplify, more people want to be architects than the market will bear, despite the many years of education required. Like teaching, it seems to be a calling rather than a solid plan to make money commensurate with the education required. | 1 | 7,595 | 11.727273 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6ryir | iu6b9yx | 1,667,001,360 | 1,666,993,479 | 129 | 10 | I make more money in my first year in an entry level construction position that requires a 4 year degree (project engineer) than I made in 7 years as a Project Manager with my Masters degree. | How many years of experience do you have ? | 1 | 7,881 | 12.9 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6rc9g | iu6ryir | 1,667,001,055 | 1,667,001,360 | 9 | 129 | It's complicated and hugely multi-factorial for a profession where it's hard to quantify in numbers the benefit even though it's needed. We don't even value ourselves seeing all the free work we do. Most people think architects "design" and that's it, when really that's just a small part of the array of duties we do. I'm married to a developer and they said they pay good arch fees. Then I broke it down and for the team and for the time put in and all those "can you make a quick change"... Which you know is anything but quick. It was illuminating. Really need to educate others outside of the profession what happens. They get what an architect does from Hollywood and God forbid...HGTV. There's like a hundred more reasons too from that devastating lawsuit about suggested fee scales to pumping out grads from nowheresville that flood the markets. | I make more money in my first year in an entry level construction position that requires a 4 year degree (project engineer) than I made in 7 years as a Project Manager with my Masters degree. | 0 | 305 | 14.333333 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6n54m | iu6b370 | 1,666,999,002 | 1,666,993,395 | 67 | 19 | Architects should have unionized like the rest of the construction industry did generations ago. We would have a much better built environment and building designers would be fairly compensated. It is absurd that a lot of us make far less than other less skilled tradesmen. | Architects are very underpaid considering the little bit of prestige we have. We can even be compared to Doctors and Lawyers. Except for the Starchitects out there the average Architect isn't making great money. My recommendation would be to find a job and then look for a better one. Always make sure you can do moonlighting on the side to make some extra money. | 1 | 5,607 | 3.526316 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6n54m | iu6bwxb | 1,666,999,002 | 1,666,993,765 | 67 | 11 | Architects should have unionized like the rest of the construction industry did generations ago. We would have a much better built environment and building designers would be fairly compensated. It is absurd that a lot of us make far less than other less skilled tradesmen. | To oversimplify, more people want to be architects than the market will bear, despite the many years of education required. Like teaching, it seems to be a calling rather than a solid plan to make money commensurate with the education required. | 1 | 5,237 | 6.090909 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6b9yx | iu6n54m | 1,666,993,479 | 1,666,999,002 | 10 | 67 | How many years of experience do you have ? | Architects should have unionized like the rest of the construction industry did generations ago. We would have a much better built environment and building designers would be fairly compensated. It is absurd that a lot of us make far less than other less skilled tradesmen. | 0 | 5,523 | 6.7 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu70pot | iu6b370 | 1,667,005,622 | 1,666,993,395 | 55 | 19 | This my advice for all young graduates . If you want to make money go into construction and use your Revit skills there . You will learn more about building science and constructability. Then find remote jobs and do contract work with 3 firms . Boom paychecks roll in | Architects are very underpaid considering the little bit of prestige we have. We can even be compared to Doctors and Lawyers. Except for the Starchitects out there the average Architect isn't making great money. My recommendation would be to find a job and then look for a better one. Always make sure you can do moonlighting on the side to make some extra money. | 1 | 12,227 | 2.894737 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu70pot | iu6bwxb | 1,667,005,622 | 1,666,993,765 | 55 | 11 | This my advice for all young graduates . If you want to make money go into construction and use your Revit skills there . You will learn more about building science and constructability. Then find remote jobs and do contract work with 3 firms . Boom paychecks roll in | To oversimplify, more people want to be architects than the market will bear, despite the many years of education required. Like teaching, it seems to be a calling rather than a solid plan to make money commensurate with the education required. | 1 | 11,857 | 5 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu70pot | iu6b9yx | 1,667,005,622 | 1,666,993,479 | 55 | 10 | This my advice for all young graduates . If you want to make money go into construction and use your Revit skills there . You will learn more about building science and constructability. Then find remote jobs and do contract work with 3 firms . Boom paychecks roll in | How many years of experience do you have ? | 1 | 12,143 | 5.5 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu70pot | iu6rc9g | 1,667,005,622 | 1,667,001,055 | 55 | 9 | This my advice for all young graduates . If you want to make money go into construction and use your Revit skills there . You will learn more about building science and constructability. Then find remote jobs and do contract work with 3 firms . Boom paychecks roll in | It's complicated and hugely multi-factorial for a profession where it's hard to quantify in numbers the benefit even though it's needed. We don't even value ourselves seeing all the free work we do. Most people think architects "design" and that's it, when really that's just a small part of the array of duties we do. I'm married to a developer and they said they pay good arch fees. Then I broke it down and for the team and for the time put in and all those "can you make a quick change"... Which you know is anything but quick. It was illuminating. Really need to educate others outside of the profession what happens. They get what an architect does from Hollywood and God forbid...HGTV. There's like a hundred more reasons too from that devastating lawsuit about suggested fee scales to pumping out grads from nowheresville that flood the markets. | 1 | 4,567 | 6.111111 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6w8e5 | iu70pot | 1,667,003,464 | 1,667,005,622 | 8 | 55 | I think a part of it comes down to why firms often have a difficult time making a profit. One can estimate hours and fees required for a project, from concept through CA, but so many curveballs can be thrown throughout the duration of the project, that often times the fees agreed to end up being too low. Couple that with the fact that our projects are in essence our advertising. Even if we run out of hours or fees on a project, there is still a need to see it through to the best of our ability, so that our design and our art can be realized as intended, so we can add another strong project to our portfolio and website, which ideally will get us more projects. It’s tough to balance trying to do a project service, while maintaining profitability. | This my advice for all young graduates . If you want to make money go into construction and use your Revit skills there . You will learn more about building science and constructability. Then find remote jobs and do contract work with 3 firms . Boom paychecks roll in | 0 | 2,158 | 6.875 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7bsb1 | iu7gxzp | 1,667,011,120 | 1,667,013,945 | 43 | 46 | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | 0 | 2,825 | 1.069767 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7bsb1 | iu7a0t7 | 1,667,011,120 | 1,667,010,227 | 43 | 41 | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | The "is it worth it?" question is the crux of the issue. Architecture an interesting career that can be very rewarding. But given how much work is required to be good at this job, you can put in half the effort into another job and get paid double. After 17 years of sticking with it, I jumped ship and switched careers to system administration. Double the pay/benefits. It's just not worth it plugging away daily for so little. I'm licensed so I have been doing some jobs on the side to keep my architecture skills up to date. | 1 | 893 | 1.04878 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu78bsk | iu7bsb1 | 1,667,009,378 | 1,667,011,120 | 38 | 43 | Competition is high basically , and the reality is the developers make all the money , architects and engineers just get the scraps kind of . | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | 0 | 1,742 | 1.131579 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6b370 | iu7bsb1 | 1,666,993,395 | 1,667,011,120 | 19 | 43 | Architects are very underpaid considering the little bit of prestige we have. We can even be compared to Doctors and Lawyers. Except for the Starchitects out there the average Architect isn't making great money. My recommendation would be to find a job and then look for a better one. Always make sure you can do moonlighting on the side to make some extra money. | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | 0 | 17,725 | 2.263158 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6bwxb | iu7bsb1 | 1,666,993,765 | 1,667,011,120 | 11 | 43 | To oversimplify, more people want to be architects than the market will bear, despite the many years of education required. Like teaching, it seems to be a calling rather than a solid plan to make money commensurate with the education required. | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | 0 | 17,355 | 3.909091 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6b9yx | iu7bsb1 | 1,666,993,479 | 1,667,011,120 | 10 | 43 | How many years of experience do you have ? | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | 0 | 17,641 | 4.3 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7bsb1 | iu6rc9g | 1,667,011,120 | 1,667,001,055 | 43 | 9 | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | It's complicated and hugely multi-factorial for a profession where it's hard to quantify in numbers the benefit even though it's needed. We don't even value ourselves seeing all the free work we do. Most people think architects "design" and that's it, when really that's just a small part of the array of duties we do. I'm married to a developer and they said they pay good arch fees. Then I broke it down and for the team and for the time put in and all those "can you make a quick change"... Which you know is anything but quick. It was illuminating. Really need to educate others outside of the profession what happens. They get what an architect does from Hollywood and God forbid...HGTV. There's like a hundred more reasons too from that devastating lawsuit about suggested fee scales to pumping out grads from nowheresville that flood the markets. | 1 | 10,065 | 4.777778 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7bsb1 | iu6w8e5 | 1,667,011,120 | 1,667,003,464 | 43 | 8 | Tortured artist mystique that has to die. | I think a part of it comes down to why firms often have a difficult time making a profit. One can estimate hours and fees required for a project, from concept through CA, but so many curveballs can be thrown throughout the duration of the project, that often times the fees agreed to end up being too low. Couple that with the fact that our projects are in essence our advertising. Even if we run out of hours or fees on a project, there is still a need to see it through to the best of our ability, so that our design and our art can be realized as intended, so we can add another strong project to our portfolio and website, which ideally will get us more projects. It’s tough to balance trying to do a project service, while maintaining profitability. | 1 | 7,656 | 5.375 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7a0t7 | iu7gxzp | 1,667,010,227 | 1,667,013,945 | 41 | 46 | The "is it worth it?" question is the crux of the issue. Architecture an interesting career that can be very rewarding. But given how much work is required to be good at this job, you can put in half the effort into another job and get paid double. After 17 years of sticking with it, I jumped ship and switched careers to system administration. Double the pay/benefits. It's just not worth it plugging away daily for so little. I'm licensed so I have been doing some jobs on the side to keep my architecture skills up to date. | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | 0 | 3,718 | 1.121951 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu78bsk | iu7gxzp | 1,667,009,378 | 1,667,013,945 | 38 | 46 | Competition is high basically , and the reality is the developers make all the money , architects and engineers just get the scraps kind of . | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | 0 | 4,567 | 1.210526 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7gxzp | iu7c9b1 | 1,667,013,945 | 1,667,011,365 | 46 | 37 | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | Design is seen as a commodity, whoever is low bid will get the job. It’s ironic though because design significantly affects the final cost of work. I think by choosing to spend more on design up front owners would get better and more complete designs - which would reduce uncertainty/risk going into construction which would be a big cost benefit to the project. | 1 | 2,580 | 1.243243 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7gxzp | iu6b370 | 1,667,013,945 | 1,666,993,395 | 46 | 19 | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | Architects are very underpaid considering the little bit of prestige we have. We can even be compared to Doctors and Lawyers. Except for the Starchitects out there the average Architect isn't making great money. My recommendation would be to find a job and then look for a better one. Always make sure you can do moonlighting on the side to make some extra money. | 1 | 20,550 | 2.421053 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu6bwxb | iu7gxzp | 1,666,993,765 | 1,667,013,945 | 11 | 46 | To oversimplify, more people want to be architects than the market will bear, despite the many years of education required. Like teaching, it seems to be a calling rather than a solid plan to make money commensurate with the education required. | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | 0 | 20,180 | 4.181818 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7gxzp | iu6b9yx | 1,667,013,945 | 1,666,993,479 | 46 | 10 | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | How many years of experience do you have ? | 1 | 20,466 | 4.6 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7gxzp | iu6rc9g | 1,667,013,945 | 1,667,001,055 | 46 | 9 | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | It's complicated and hugely multi-factorial for a profession where it's hard to quantify in numbers the benefit even though it's needed. We don't even value ourselves seeing all the free work we do. Most people think architects "design" and that's it, when really that's just a small part of the array of duties we do. I'm married to a developer and they said they pay good arch fees. Then I broke it down and for the team and for the time put in and all those "can you make a quick change"... Which you know is anything but quick. It was illuminating. Really need to educate others outside of the profession what happens. They get what an architect does from Hollywood and God forbid...HGTV. There's like a hundred more reasons too from that devastating lawsuit about suggested fee scales to pumping out grads from nowheresville that flood the markets. | 1 | 12,890 | 5.111111 | ||
yg1brr | architecture_train | 0.94 | Why are architects underpaid? I recently had a conversation with a recruiter and I was told I’m asking for way more than industry standards (US market) and that I’m delusional and should probably settle for less. In my opinion AIA compensation calculator is outdated. Is to too much to ask for a little more than industry standard because of inflation, unreasonable rents and student debts? This feels like a rant but why are we ok with getting paid less in spite of having sufficient years of experience. I cannot draw comparisons to tech jobs but this is ridiculous. If anyone has a way to justify this nonsensical salary or has a way to help sell yourself better in an interview to get paid what you deserve please let me know. Thank you in advance. PS: Sometimes working in this industry feels like a waste of time. | iu7gxzp | iu6w8e5 | 1,667,013,945 | 1,667,003,464 | 46 | 8 | Stop selling architecture as art. Thats when we make more money | I think a part of it comes down to why firms often have a difficult time making a profit. One can estimate hours and fees required for a project, from concept through CA, but so many curveballs can be thrown throughout the duration of the project, that often times the fees agreed to end up being too low. Couple that with the fact that our projects are in essence our advertising. Even if we run out of hours or fees on a project, there is still a need to see it through to the best of our ability, so that our design and our art can be realized as intended, so we can add another strong project to our portfolio and website, which ideally will get us more projects. It’s tough to balance trying to do a project service, while maintaining profitability. | 1 | 10,481 | 5.75 |
🚢 Stanford Human Preferences Dataset v2 (SHP-2)
Summary
SHP-2 is a dataset of 4.8M collective human preferences over responses to questions/instructions in 129 different subject areas, from cooking to legal advice. It is an extended version of the original 385K SHP dataset.
The preferences are meant to reflect the helpfulness of one response over another, and are intended to be used for training RLHF reward models and NLG evaluation models (e.g., SteamSHP).
Each example is a Reddit or StackExchange post with a question/instruction and a pair of top-level comments for that post, where one comment is more preferred by Reddit / StackExchange users (collectively). SHP exploits the fact that if comment A was written after comment B but has a higher score nonetheless, then A is ostensibly more preferred to B. If A had been written before B, then we could not conclude this, since its higher score could have been the result of more visibility. We chose data where the preference label is intended to reflect which response is more helpful rather than which is less harmful, the latter being the focus of much past work.
How is SHP different from Anthropic's HH-RLHF dataset and Open Assistant?
Dataset | Size | Input | Label | Domains | Data Format | Length |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
SHP-2 | 4.8M | Naturally occurring human-written responses | Collective Human Preference | 129 (labelled) | Question/Instruction + Response (Single-turn) | up to 10.1K T5 tokens |
HH-RLHF | 91K | Dialogue with LLM | Individual Human Preference | not labelled | Live Chat (Multi-turn) | up to 1.5K T5 tokens |
OASST | 161K | Dialogue with LLM | K Individual Preferences, Aggregated | not labelled | Live Chat (Multi-Turn) | up to 1.5K T5 tokens |
How is SHP different from other datasets that have scraped Reddit, like ELI5? SHP uses the timestamp information to infer preferences, while ELI5 only provides comments and scores -- the latter are not enough to infer preferences since comments made earlier tend to get higher scores from more visibility. It also contains data from more domains:
Dataset | Size | Comments + Scores | Preferences | Number of Domains |
---|---|---|---|---|
SHP-2 | 4.8M | Yes | Yes | 129 (70 from Reddit, 59 from StackExchange) |
SHP | 385K | Yes | Yes | 18 (from Reddit) |
ELI5 | 270K | Yes | No | 3 |
Data Structure
There are 2 directories, one for Reddit and one for StackExchange. There are 70 subdirectories under reddit/
, one for each subreddit, and 59 subdirectories under stackexchange/
, one for each stackexchange site.
Each subdirectory contains a JSONL file for the training, validation, and test data.
Here's how to get the data using Huggingface's datasets
library:
from datasets import load_dataset
# Load all the data
dataset = load_dataset("stanfordnlp/shp-2")
# Load one of the subreddits
dataset = load_dataset("stanfordnlp/shp-2", data_dir="reddit/askculinary")
# Load one of the StackExchange sites
dataset = load_dataset("stanfordnlp/shp-2", data_dir="stackexchange/stack_academia")
Here's an example from reddit/askculinary/train.json
:
{
`post_id`:"qt3nxl",
`domain`:"askculinary_train",
`upvote_ratio`:0.98,
`history`:"What's the best way to disassemble raspberries? Like this, but down to the individual seeds: https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/Z0c6ZKE.jpg I've been pulling them apart with tweezers and it's really time consuming. I have about 10 pounds to get through this weekend.",
`c_root_id_A`:"hkh25sc",
`c_root_id_B`:"hkh25lp",
`created_at_utc_A`:1636822112,
`created_at_utc_B`:1636822110,
`score_A`:340,
`score_B`:166,
`human_ref_A`:"Pectinex, perhaps? It's an enzyme that breaks down cellulose. With citrus, you let it sit in a dilute solution of pectinex overnight to break down the connective tissues. You end up with perfect citrus supremes. If you let the raspberries sit for a shorter time, I wonder if it would separate the seeds the same way...? Here's an example: https:\/\/www.chefsteps.com\/activities\/perfect-citrus-supreme",
`human_ref_B`:"Raspberry juice will make a bright stain at first, but in a matter of weeks it will start to fade away to almost nothing. It is what is known in the natural dye world as a fugitive dye, it will fade even without washing or exposure to light. I hope she gets lots of nice photos of these stains on her dress, because soon that will be all she has left of them!",
`labels`:1,
`metadata_A`: "",
`metadata_B`: "",
`seconds_difference`:2.0,
`score_ratio`:2.0481927711
}
Here's an example from stackexchange/stack_academia/validation.json
:
{
`post_id`:"87393",
`domain`:"academia_validation",
`history`:"What to answer an author asking me if I reviewed his/her paper? <sep> Suppose I review someone's paper anonymously, the paper gets accepted, and a year or two later we meet e.g. in a social event and he/she asks me "did you review my paper?". What should I answer? There are several sub-questions here: Suppose the review was a good one, and the paper eventualy got accepted, so I do not mind telling that I was the reviewer. Is there any rule/norm prohibiting me from telling the truth? Suppose the review was not so good, so I do not want to reveal. What can I answer? If I just say "I am not allowed to tell you", this immediately reveals me... On the other hand, I do not want to lie. What options do I have?",
`c_root_id_A`:"87434",
`c_root_id_B`:"87453",
`created_at_utc_A`:1490989560,
`created_at_utc_B`:1491012608,
`score_A`:2,
`score_B`:5,
`human_ref_A`:"I am aware of at least one paper where a referee went out of cover (after the review process of course) and was explicitly mentioned in a later paper: <blockquote> X and Y thank Z, who as the anonymous referee was kind enough to point out the error (and later became non-anonymous). </blockquote> so it is sure fine to answer truthfully that yes you did review, but only if you wish of course (and most likely if you have been helpful and the authors of the paper responsive).",
`human_ref_B`:"Perhaps you should follow the example of Howard Percy Robertson (known as the 'R' in the famous FLRW, or Friedmann-Lematre-Robertson-Walker metric used in physical cosmology.) He was the referee of the famous Einstein-Rosen paper, which was rejected by Physical Review, prompting Einstein never to publish in Physical Review again. Einstein ignored the referee report, but months later, it seems, Robertson had a chance to talk to Einstein and may have helped convince him of the error of his ways. However, as far as we know, he never revealed to Einstein that he was the anonymous referee for Physical Review. It was not until 2005 I believe, long after the death of all participants, that Physical Review chose to disclose the referee's identity (http://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1063/1.2117822).",
`labels`:"0",
`metadata_A`:"Post URL: https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/87393, Response URL: https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/87434, Post author username: Erel Segal-Halevi, Post author profile: https://academia.stackexchange.com/users/787, Response author username: mts, Response author profile: https://academia.stackexchange.com/users/49583",
`metadata_B`:"Post URL: https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/87393, Response URL: https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/87453, Post author username: Erel Segal-Halevi, Post author profile: https://academia.stackexchange.com/users/787, Response author username: Viktor Toth, Response author profile: https://academia.stackexchange.com/users/7938",
`seconds_difference`:23048.0,
`score_ratio`:2.5,
}
where the fields are:
post_id
: the ID of the Reddit post (string)domain
: the subreddit and split the example is drawn from, separated by an underscore (string)upvote_ratio
: the percent of votes received by the post that were positive (aka upvotes), -1.0 for stackexchange as there is no such data (float)history
: the post title concatented to the post body (string)c_root_id_A
: the ID of comment A (string)c_root_id_B
: the ID of comment B (string)created_at_utc_A
: utc timestamp of when comment A was created (integer)created_at_utc_B
: utc timestamp of when comment B was created (integer)score_A
: (# positive votes - # negative votes + 1) received by comment A (integer)score_B
: (# positive votes - # negative votes + 1) received by comment B (integer)human_ref_A
: text of comment A (string)human_ref_B
: text of comment B (string)labels
: the preference label -- it is 1 if A is preferred to B; 0 if B is preferred to A. This was randomized such that the label distribution is roughly 50/50. (integer)metadata_A
: metadata for stackexchange post and comment A (string)metadata_B
: metadata for stackexchange post and comment B (string)seconds_difference
: how many seconds after the less preferred comment the more preferred one was created (will always be >= 0) (integer)score_ratio
: the ratio of the more preferred comment's score to the less preferred comment's score (will be >= 1) (float)
Dataset Design
Domain Selection
The data is sourced from Reddit and StackExchange, which are both public forums organized into different domains.
SHP-2 contains a train, validation, and test split for comments scraped from each domain. We chose domains based on:
- whether they were well-known (>= 100K subscribers for Reddit and >= 50K for StackExchange)
- whether posts were expected to pose a question or instruction
- whether responses were valued based on how helpful they were
- whether comments had to be rooted in some objectivity, instead of being entirely about personal experiences (e.g.,
askscience
vs.AskAmericans
)
The train/validation/test splits were created by splitting the post IDs of a domain in 90%/5%/5% proportions respectively, so that no post would appear in multiple splits. Since different posts have different numbers of comments, the number of preferences in each split is not exactly 90%/5%/5%.
See below for a list of all domains:
Reddit:
techsupport, asklinguistics, askscience, catadvice, campingandhiking, askphysics, espresso, botany, asksocialscience, askbaking, ultralight, legaladvice, hiking, webdev, askengineers, screenwriting, askhistorians, vegetarian, writing, diy, musictheory, camping, moviesuggestions, askeconomics, stocks, frugal, outoftheloop, booksuggestions, gamedev, linuxquestions, asknetsec, aviation, askacademia, asksciencefiction, askhr, explainlikeimfive, etymology, entrepreneur, cooking, puppy101, keto, crochet, smallbusiness, architecture, artfundamentals, sewing, zerowaste, changemyview, mechanicadvice, iwanttolearn, eatcheapandhealthy, askanthropology, askculinary, askphilosophy, tea, running, excel, homebrewing, solotravel, fishing, cookingforbeginners, homeautomation, ifyoulikeblank, travel, suggestmeabook, televisionsuggestions, sysadmin, askcarguys, askdocs, askvet
StackExchange:
stack_unix, stack_android, stack_academia, stack_superuser, stack_tex, stack_photo, stack_datascience, stack_mechanics, stack_english, stack_askubuntu, stack_sharepoint, stack_workplace, stack_blender, stack_ethereum, stack_stats, stack_bitcoin, stack_gamedev, stack_raspberrypi, stack_arduino, stack_magento, stack_physics, stack_mathoverflow, stack_dsp, stack_movies, stack_crypto, stack_apple, stack_mathematica, stack_philosophy, stack_wordpress, stack_ux, stack_webmasters, stack_cs, stack_travel, stack_bicycles, stack_softwarerecs, stack_money, stack_ell, stack_scifi, stack_aviation, stack_math, stack_biology, stack_drupal, stack_diy, stack_security, stack_salesforce, stack_graphicdesign, stack_stackoverflow, stack_webapps, stack_cooking, stack_networkengineering, stack_dba, stack_puzzling, stack_serverfault, stack_codereview, stack_music, stack_codegolf, stack_electronics, stack_chemistry, stack_gis
Data Selection
For Reddit, the score of a post/comment is 1 plus the number of upvotes (approvals) it gets from users, minus the number of downvotes (disapprovals) it gets. For Stackexchange, the score of a post/comment is 0 plus the number of upvotes (approvals) it gets from users, minus the number of downvotes (disapprovals) it gets. The value of a score is relative; in domains(posts) with more traffic, there will be more higher-scoring posts(comments). Within a post, comments posted earlier will tend to have a higher score simply due to having more exposure, which is why using timestamp information is essential when inferring preferences.
Given a post P and two comments (A,B) we only included the preference A > B in the dataset if
- A was written no later than B and A has a higher score than B.
- The post is a self-post (i.e., a body of text and not a link to another page) made before 2023, was not edited, and is not NSFW (over 18). For Stackexchange, edited posts were permitted as long as they were edited prior to the writing of the comments.
- Neither comment was made by a deleted user, a moderator, or the post creator. The post was not made by a deleted user or moderator.
- For Reddit, the post has a score >= 10 and each comment has a score >= 2 (upvoted at least once). For Stackexchange, the post has a score >= 5 and each comment has a non-zero score.
The conditions are laxer for StackExchange because it is more strictly moderataed than Reddit, allowing us to hit the same data quality with lower thresholds. In particular, we allow negative-score comments from StackExchange because the negative scores are likely due to being inaccurat/misinformed rather than being toxic, and this provides a useful signal.
A post with n
comments could have up to (n
choose 2
) preferences in the data.
Since the number of comments per post is Pareto-distributed, to prevent a relatively small number of posts from dominating the Reddit data, we limited the scraping to 50 comments per post.
This means that each post could have up to (50
choose 2
) comments in the dataset, though this is a much smaller number in practice, since all the criteria above need to be met.
No such criteria are imposed for StackExchange, since there are fewer comments per post.
Reddit Preprocessing
We tried to keep preprocessing to a minimum. Subreddit-specific abbreviations were expanded (e.g., "CMV" to "Change my view that"). In hyperlinks, only the referring text was kept and the URL was removed (if the URL was written out, then it was kept).
Finetuning
If you want to finetune a model to predict human preferences (e.g., for NLG evaluation or an RLHF reward model), here are some helpful tips:
- Preprocess the data. The total input length should fit under the model's token limit (usually 512 tokens).
Although models like FLAN-T5 use positional embeddings, we found that the loss would not converge if we finetuned it on inputs over 512 tokens.
To avoid this, truncate the post text (in the
history
field) as much as possible, such that the whole input is under 512 tokens (do not truncate the comment(s) however). If this is still over 512 tokens, simply skip the example. - Use a sufficiently large model. Finetuning a single FLAN-T5-xl model across the original 385K SHP training data should give you a test accuracy between 72-73% (across all domains on examples where the entire input fits within the token limit), ranging from 65-80% on individual subreddits.
- Do in-domain prediction. Out-of-domain performance will be poor if the domains are unrelated (e.g., if you fine-tune on
askculinary
preferences and test onaskcarguys
preferences). - Train for fewer epochs. The InstructGPT paper paper suggests training a reward model for only 1 epoch. Since the same comment appears in multiple preferences, it is easy to overfit to the data.
- Training on less data may help.
Preferences with a large
score_ratio
(e.g., comment A having 2x the score of comment B) will provide a stronger signal for finetuning the model, so you may only want to consider preferences above a certainscore_ratio
. The number of preferences per post is Pareto-distributed, so to prevent the model from over-fitting to certain posts, you may want to limit the number of preferences from a particular post.
Biases and Limitations
Biases
Although we filtered out posts with NSFW (over 18) content, chose domains that were well-moderated and had policies against harassment and bigotry, some of the data may contain discriminatory or harmful language. The data does not reflect the views of the dataset creators. Reddit and StackExchange users are also not representative of the broader population. Although subreddit-specific demographic information is not available, Reddit users overall are disproportionately male and from developed, Western, and English-speaking countries (Pew Research). This is likely also true of StackExchange users. Please keep this in mind before using any models trained on this data.
Limitations
The preference label in SHP is intended to reflect how helpful one response is relative to another, given an instruction/question. SHP is not intended for use in harm-minimization, as it was not designed to include the toxic content that would be necessary to learn a good toxicity detector. If you are looking for data where the preference label denotes less harm, we would recommend the harmfulness split of Anthropic's HH-RLHF.
Another limitation is that the more preferred response in SHP is not necessarily the more factual one.
Though some comments do provide citations to justify their response, most do not.
There are exceptions to this, such as the askhistorians
subreddit, which is heavily moderated and answers are expected to provide citations.
Note that the collective preference label in SHP is not necessarily what we would get if we asked users to independently vote on each comment before taking an unweighted sum. This is because comment scores on Reddit are public and are known to influence user preferences; a high score increases the likelihood of getting more positive votes (Muchnik et al., 2013). Whether this "herding effect" temporarily or permanently shifts a user's preference is unclear. Therefore, while SHP does reflect collective human preferences, models trained on SHP may not generalize to settings where individual preferences are aggregated differently (e.g., users vote independently without ever seeing the current comment score, users vote after conferring, etc.). Thanks to Greg Stoddard for pointing this out.
License
Last updated: 07/016/2023
The data was made by scraping publicly available data in accordance with the a historical version of Reddit API Terms of Use, without any direct communication or written agreements with Reddit. According to the Terms of Use, "User Content" is owned by the users themselves -- not by Reddit -- and Reddit grants a "non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, and revocable license to copy and display the User Content". At time of writing, Reddit grants "no other rights or licenses are granted or implied, including any right to use User Content for other purposes, such as for training a machine learning or artificial intelligence model, without the express permission of rightsholders in the applicable User Content." However, the legality of training on publicly available data will depend on your jurisdiction (legal in Japan, for example).
Datasets made by scraping Reddit are widely used in the research community: for example, Facebook AI Research used data scraped from Reddit to make the ELI5 dataset in 2019, which was made available without a license. Anthropic AI has also attested to scraping Reddit for preferences using a different methodology, though this data was not made public.
We take no responsibility for and we do not expressly or implicitly endorse any downstream use of this dataset. We reserve the right to modify the SHP dataset and this license at any point in the future.
StackExchange
StackExchange data is made available under a CC by-SA license.
Contact
Please contact kawin@stanford.edu if you have any questions about the data. This dataset was created by Kawin Ethayarajh, Heidi (Chenyu) Zhang, and Shabnam Behzad with advice from Dan Jurafsky and Yizhong Wang. Kawin and Heidi prepared the Reddit datasets and trained the SteamSHP models. Kawin and Shabnam prepared the StackExchange data. Dan and Yizhong provide advice on dataset construction.
Citation
We will have a paper out soon, but until then, please cite:
@InProceedings{pmlr-v162-ethayarajh22a,
title = {Understanding Dataset Difficulty with $\mathcal{V}$-Usable Information},
author = {Ethayarajh, Kawin and Choi, Yejin and Swayamdipta, Swabha},
booktitle = {Proceedings of the 39th International Conference on Machine Learning},
pages = {5988--6008},
year = {2022},
editor = {Chaudhuri, Kamalika and Jegelka, Stefanie and Song, Le and Szepesvari, Csaba and Niu, Gang and Sabato, Sivan},
volume = {162},
series = {Proceedings of Machine Learning Research},
month = {17--23 Jul},
publisher = {PMLR},
}
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